Ken, many thanks for posting this. I spent most of yesterday evening and a bit of this morning sending the link to people.

By  George Berger, at Saturday, December 12, 2009 3:16:00 pm  

Same here, George!
Yet another anti-democratic outrage by the US authorities.

By  Unknown, at Saturday, December 12, 2009 8:21:00 pm  

Right Danny. About three years ago I became convinced that the net really was a powerful way of getting important news widely known asap. I've done a bit of bloggingt, but this was the first time that I felt a need for instant action. It's all quite amazing. So keep right on trucking.

By  George Berger, at Saturday, December 12, 2009 9:35:00 pm  

Is it just my connection or have "they" (whoever, I don't know) taken Watts' site down? Yesterday it worked, today I get Error establishing a database connection.

I'm getting more and more paranoid...

By  Anonymous, at Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:37:00 am  

Hi Anonymous. Dr Watts' site is up. I suspect a problem at your end.

By  George Berger, at Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:50:00 am  

to Anonymous above, I can confirm getting the same error message. Hope we get some clarification as to what's going on. Also thx to Ken for posting this as I usually visit this blog first and foremost but am a huge fan of Mr.Watts work (as well as yours)I can honestly say I haven't been this upset over anything in quite some time.Truly an outrage.
-D.Page

By  Anonymous, at Sunday, December 13, 2009 8:50:00 am  

At 10:04, just one minute ago, the site was up. Maybe it's a local problem. I live in Sweden.

By  George Berger, at Sunday, December 13, 2009 9:07:00 am  

George, I'd heard the story but it was your email that kicked me into blogging it, so thanks for that and all your other efforts on this one.

By  Ken, at Sunday, December 13, 2009 12:15:00 pm  

My pleasure Ken. Most of the work was done by Jetse, using Twitter. I went straight to blogs, fora, and websites. Later today I hope to send it to the Dutch reporter who helped me with that other matter. Who knows? Oh Yes. Ilorien blogged it too. I sent it to him and he reacted quickly.

By  George Berger, at Sunday, December 13, 2009 1:22:00 pm  

The database error will almost certainly be due to the unprecedented level of traffic he's experiencing, and will be intermittent and frustrating - but not related to your location. (Except insofar as your time zone may make you more likely to be visiting in high-traffic hours.)

By  Michael, at Sunday, December 13, 2009 11:47:00 pm  

Yet another anti-democratic outrage by the US authorities.

If one presents a perceived threat to a cop in Chicago, or Glasgow, or Moscow and they'll react the same: they will do what they need to do to get on top of the threat.

It's not the nationality that got Mr. Watts a beat down: it's the mentality of a guy with a badge and a modest amount of authority.

By  Brian Dunbar, at Monday, December 14, 2009 7:48:00 pm  

Well, see the rather similar affair of Amy Goodman. Then start wondering if the incident concerning Peter Watts was simply a matter of a typical police 'mentality.' I don't claim to know. For Ms Goodman, google 'Democracy Now.' it is a news outlet in the USA with which Ms Goodman is connected.

By  George Berger, at Monday, December 14, 2009 9:11:00 pm  

Then start wondering if the incident concerning Peter Watts was simply a matter of a typical police 'mentality.

I think there is a world of difference between a reporter getting arrested at a demo during a political convention and a guy getting jacked up at a border crossing.

As reported by Mr. Watts, the incident sounds like cops being cops.

By  Brian Dunbar, at Tuesday, December 15, 2009 3:05:00 pm  

Hi Brian---Suppose you are right. This does not excuse the cops one bit. Support for Dr Watts is still necessary, if only to help him in any way that's lrgal and possible, while putting these and other uniformed thugs on notice And now that I think of it, what's ok about the arrest of a reporter doing her work? As I learned last night, Ms Goodman is America's most authoritative, critical, reporter.

By  George Berger, at Tuesday, December 15, 2009 4:46:00 pm  

Amazing. A Stalinist pig like Ken McLeod complaining ab out police beatings.

Doesn't Ken know that ibn order to enforce the policiues he supports, there will have to be polices, and a lot more than just beatings. Well, of course he does. That's why this post is no more than an exercise in hypocrisy and selective outrage.

By  js, at Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:12:00 pm  

Two wrongs don't amke a right, but it's hilarious that
Peter Watt's totalitarian attitude to "climate change deniers" is so nicely matched by a demonstration of totalitarianism in action by the Border Patrol

By  js, at Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:22:00 pm  

Hi Jsabotta----As a philosophy teacher I learned that trading on an ambiguity can produce a bad argument or a bad analogy. Your use of 'totalitarian' gets you an example of the latter.So assuming your intellectual honesty I shall just point this error out to you.

By  George Berger, at Tuesday, December 15, 2009 6:58:00 pm  

Your assumption about jsabotta's intellectual honesty strikes me as unwarranted George. After all, this poster's rudeness is only exceeded by their ignorance. ;)

By  "A bit political on yer ass!", at Tuesday, December 15, 2009 10:38:00 pm  

Hi Jmc. Well, I usually try to keep my equanimity and argue as rigorously as possible, if a conversational partner (aka opponent) does not respond in kind , say by accepting my point and reacting rationally, then I usually just tune out. In this case the opponent has not yet returned, so perhaps he/she realised that my point about bad analogies was applicable here. Well, it is good to see that my training as a philosopher was good for something!

By  George Berger, at Wednesday, December 16, 2009 12:08:00 am  

Hi Jmc. Well, I usually try to keep my equanimity and argue as rigorously as possible, if a conversational partner (aka opponent) does not respond in kind , say by accepting my point and reacting rationally, then I usually just tune out. In this case the opponent has not yet returned, so perhaps he/she realised that my point about bad analogies was applicable here. Well, it is good to see that my training as a philosopher was good for something!

By  George Berger, at Wednesday, December 16, 2009 12:09:00 am  

By the way, this is one reason why I almost never attend political meetings. Real arguments are few and far between at such events, and I am pretty much of a rationalist . I prefer to wait till some cause turns up ifor which any talent that I have can actually be applied. That's why Internet work appeals to me so much. I can engage in calm arguments, use google strategically, and react quickly when one must do so to get something done, there's no politico around to tell me that we 'gotta' do this and we 'must not' do that. These types almost never tell you why, and my mind rebels at such antics.

By  George Berger, at Wednesday, December 16, 2009 12:23:00 am  

Hi Brian---Suppose you are right. This does not excuse the cops one bit.

Oh, of course not, George. Never thought otherwise.

And now that I think of it, what's ok about the arrest of a reporter doing her work?

I did not say it was 'ok', just that the arrests happened in different contexts.

Details of Ms. Goodman's arrest are sketchy in my mind, and the video I just googled only shows her getting arrested, not what happened before that.

I recall that Goodman's reporting was less 'covering the event' and more 'being a part of the event.' But that was long ago and I've traveled some miles since then.

If a reporter is participating in a demo then the police would be doing their job by arresting the reporter. I think - I am not a lawyer.

But as I say, the details are sketchy in my memory and not really applicable to Dr. Watt's perdicament.

By  Brian Dunbar, at Wednesday, December 16, 2009 12:40:00 am  

Thanks Brian. That's a perfect clarification of your first text. It should be obvious from my previous contrib that this is exactly the sort of discussion I like the most.

By  George Berger, at Wednesday, December 16, 2009 12:47:00 am  

"If one presents a perceived threat to a cop in Chicago, or Glasgow, or Moscow and they'll react the same: they will do what they need to do to get on top of the threat.
It's not the nationality that got Mr. Watts a beat down: it's the mentality of a guy with a badge and a modest amount of authority."
Brian

I'm not entirely sure that this adds up Brian. What I am suggesting is that, being armed, cops in Chicago or Moscow will react somewhat differently than those in Glasgow. To be more precise: I would suggest that gun-toting cops are more likely to escalate a situation for no good reason because:
1. Their firearms mean that they are more likely to retain control.
2. Should something go wrong they can usually rely on their fellow cops to cover for them.

Consequently, nationality plays the role of setting the context in which are formed cops' practices and their attitudes to the citizens over whom they exercise their authority. I would suggest therefore that the border guards in question are more likely to represent the worst sort of petty authoritarian character type; ie. people who perhaps really aren't suited for the responsibilties their jobs entail. Hmm? ;)

By  "A bit political on yer ass!", at Wednesday, December 16, 2009 1:26:00 am  

There is an issue with cops in the USA, in Glasgow (or here in NZ) a cop is a fairly well paid professional
(lots have degrees)
In the USA he is not
Some put up with the pay because of their love of the job, lots because they get to swagger with a gun
The Homeland Security guys have the same problems which is why they have to have no deviation type procedures

By  Duncan Cairncross, at Wednesday, December 16, 2009 9:01:00 am  

So far based solely upon what I've read on the internet, the USA and UK police have differentphilosophiesof operation and different training and everything else.

So whilst it is trivially true that a policeman will do what is necessary to get on top of a situation, in the USA they are much quicker at escalating it to violence. They also have slightly difficult rules of engagement, here in the UK they'll get you out your car, in the USA they want you to sit in it with your hands visible. It also seems to me that the USA patchwork of different levels of police force even over the same geographical area just makes things worse.

Mind you over here it seems new labour has abandonded the Peelian Principles which were rather useful in the past. Add too much management bullshit and the police have various problems.

By  guthrie, at Wednesday, December 16, 2009 1:21:00 pm  

jsabotta: Doesn't Ken know that ibn order to enforce the policiues he supports, there will have to be polices, and a lot more than just beatings.

What policies?

By  Ken, at Wednesday, December 16, 2009 1:45:00 pm  

the politics of experience.

for every hundred chance encounters
some repeated to a point of routine
not all exceptions prove a rule
and ones that may are just that
impulse control
a fragile thing that is not always a thing at all.
how often is the frequency of short tempers?
some events not widely known preceded, it's the fallout afterward that gets more notice.
so what is happening with 'the other guy'?
a slap or dose of reality, some twist in the wind and what border approaches to offend or defend?

By  Unknown, at Wednesday, December 16, 2009 2:45:00 pm  

I have made a dozen crossings at the Detroit/Windsor tunnel over the past decade and as a US citizen was never questioned beyond "is that your bike in the back seat," when leaving the US. However 100% of the time I was flagged to be searched when re-entering the US despite having no criminal record, or electronic footprint that would justify this treatment. The pressed question is "Why would you leave the US?"

In this universe, I know, like most Americans to keep my eyes down and my mouth shut because the moment you are flagged, this constitutes stage one of incarceration, presumption of guilt by interview. Rights, civil or otherwise can only be asserted in post script, ergo to aggressively question your detention will be met with an opportunity to receive your answer 1-6 months later at a court hearing.

As he was dumped with out a car, but doesn't mention having "his" car impounded I will assume it was a rental or not his. Rule #4 never cross an international border with a car not titled in your name.

By  jack, at Saturday, December 19, 2009 9:24:00 am  

Jack, that sounds like a cosy police state you've got there. Well. Several readers have mentioned the uniform orders that the border cops seem to have: act with immediate force at signs X,Y, Z of supposed threat. last night I mentioned this to an academic colleague. We wondered how many sorts of police receive such shoot first, ask questions later, orders. I don't know, but it's an excellent way to terrorise a population. Even if few units are under such orders, the mere thought is an effective means of keeping a populace in constant fear. One thinks here of the Securitate in Romania.

By  George Berger, at Saturday, December 19, 2009 11:32:00 pm  

The US CBP (Customs and Border Protection) are not police exactly more akin to civilian para military and as such operate outside of normal social niceties such as the presumption of innocence. My father was a Detroit Police officer while attending law school, a Lawyer and then a Judge, (so I may be slightly biased), however I believe most "Police" in the US receive a more than healthy dose of civic responsibility in their training. Not withstanding the corrupting influence of a loaded firearm on your belt and the odd personality disorder.

Terror/Death squads of the Romanian nature, mind you I have no first hand experience, were generally limited to southern states and we are taught in higher education that these rogue forces were purged by the late 70's. Despite this fact as a nation we felt it prudent to start a trade school to teach exactly those fear tactics you mention to foreign exchange students, known as The Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation formerly the School of the Americas. Funny axiom of life, that a timely name change can discard a nasty reputation.

I have only lived in the US and Great Britain but traveled extensively through out Western Europe, and it would seem in my underdeveloped experience that all Nations practice a policy of "constant fear" roughly equal to the US, for population control save Canada, Iceland Luxembourg and perhaps the Netherlands.

By  jack, at Sunday, December 20, 2009 9:02:00 am  

A serving police officer once posted on a forum I used to read that he was told (as I recall) in training:

"if you hit 'em, nick 'em".

If they don't charge you with assault, they can rarely explain why they were assaulting you.

By  ejh, at Monday, December 21, 2009 6:37:00 pm  

'Cartman with powers of arrest and backup on call' would about seem to sum up the boys in blue as an institution, don't you think? ;)

By  "A bit political on yer ass!", at Tuesday, December 22, 2009 2:24:00 am  

Hi Jack---You are spot on about the School of the Americas. A truly disgusting institute that specialised in Torture Studies, as I am sure you know. Several years ago I read the first standard work on the entire story, Mc Coy' s A Question of Torture, I think it was called. I read some other books and articles on that place. I wondered just several days ago if the change of name and location fooled many people into thinking that it had become, say, a charity. Thanks for adding your knowledge to this discussion.

By  George Berger, at Tuesday, December 22, 2009 5:35:00 pm  

What policies?

Imagine the collected works of Chomsky, being dropped on a human face forever.

By  mds, at Tuesday, December 22, 2009 9:22:00 pm  

mds: what on earth are you talking about?

By  Ken, at Tuesday, December 22, 2009 9:53:00 pm  

Sorry, just making a weak joke about the prior charge of militant Stalinism. So, instead of Orwell's boot stomping on a human face, some weighty libertarian socialist tomes ... Anyway, I had best not quit my day job to pursue my dream of becoming a stand-up comedian.

By  mds, at Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:32:00 pm  

Jack, having lived in the Netherlands for nearly 37 years, I fear I must disappoint or at least correct you. The Dutch have been brainwashed by an extreme form of Calvinism since at least the Eighty Yesrs War (ended as part of the peace of Westfalia). The basic idea is an ingrained respect for whatever authority happens to be in power, an extreme interpretation of Romans 13. Automatic compliance is one result, keeping people on line another. It is the main reason why the Nazis had it so relatively easy there during the Occupation. Queen Wilhelmina's parting words to her civil servants were "Preserve the order," which they did with some enthusiasm. c

By  George Berger, at Wednesday, December 23, 2009 6:52:00 am  

mds: OK, got you. Sorry I missed the joke. I have a bit of short fuse on this because (a) I don't agree with Chomsky's politics anyway and (b) I mis-spent a great deal of time in the 90s on Usenet arguing with wingnuts who claimed Chomsky was a closet Leninist.

By  Ken, at Wednesday, December 23, 2009 7:58:00 am  

Less than an hour ago I read this good news: http://www.rifters.com/crawl/?p=968#comments . I have no idea what comes next.

By  George Berger, at Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:25:00 am  

Ken, I would love to read that archive, as my college heartbreak was doing research for Chomsky in 92, might be cathartic.



George, perhaps it was wishful thinking, as holiday there always served dual purpose of civil disobedience. Every nation has at least one genocidal event; to go from capitulation to regret in a single generation always gave me pause for hope

By  jack, at Wednesday, December 23, 2009 11:34:00 am  

Hi Jack---Well, if you are talking about Holland then we are getting off topic. But let me say two things, partly based on my family's experience. First, the genocide was carried out with the help of most of the civil service, most of the transport services, and a good part of the population. Not quite the normal type of genocide. Secondly, the regret is often phony, indeed often for public relations purposes. The full extent of the collaboration became known around 1985, when two brave female students wrote doctoral theses on the subject. The revelations were quickly smothered.

By  George Berger, at Wednesday, December 23, 2009 12:11:00 pm