The Early Days of a Better Nation |
Ken MacLeod's comments. “If these are the early days of a better nation, there must be hope, and a hope of peace is as good as any, and far better than a hollow hoarding greed or the dry lies of an aweless god.”—Graydon Saunders Contact: kenneth dot m dot macleod at gmail dot com Blog-related emails may be quoted unless you ask otherwise.
Emergency Links
LINKS
Self-promotion
The Human Genre Project
Comrades and friends
Colleagues
Genomics
Edinburgh
Writers Blog
Editor Blogs
Publisher Blogs
Brother Blogs
Skiffy
Brits Blog
' ... a treeless, flowerless land, formed out of the refuse of the Universe, and inhabited by the very bastards of Creation'
Amazing Things
Faith
Reason
Evolution
War and Revolution
Mutualist Militants
Democratic Socialists
Impossibilists and Ilk
Viva La Quarta
Communist Parties
Other revolutionaries
Radical Resources
Readable Reds
For the sake of the argument
|
Sunday, May 23, 2010
It's a bit like reading a novel by Kim Stanley Robinson, Neal Stephenson, or Ursula Le Guin - or maybe a mashup of all them; full of arguments between passionate and intelligent people, diverting (in both senses) infodumps, and all about something that actually happened - and, more significantly, about something that didn't happen, and why it didn't. Computer scientist Paul Cockshott, a prominent advocate of cybernetic socialist planning, has written a comprehensive and enthusiastic review: This is a marvelous and unusual book. It sits in a remarkable way in between science popularisation, social history and fiction. The author describes it variously as a novel whose hero is an idea and a fairytale. The hero idea is that of optimal planning. The idea of running a planned economy in just such a way as to ensure that resources are optimally used in order to deliver the ’red plenty’ of the title. 27 Comments:Yes, but what about freedom? In a planned society, there's no room for entrepreneurs - and without them, there's no progress... I'm not sure how computers are relevant to the calculation problem. They're relevant to the "millions of equations" problem, but that problem assumes that one has the data in usable form and just needs to perform calculations on it, which makes it downstream from the two main problems -- the Hayek problem (namely the impossibility of collecting the date in the first place, since the information exists in largely inarticulate form) and the Mises problem (even if one could collect the relevant data about preferences, the preferences would be ordinal rather than cardinal and so absent prices there'd be no way of combining different individuals' value scales).
Roderick - these perfectly valid points you raise are extensively discussed in various papers by Cockshott et al. One aspect of the Hayek problem appears in Spufford's book, in a chapter titled 'Working From the Photograph'. @Roderick-I am way out of my depth here. So just let me thank youvfor your fine Immanuel Kant Song. I splashed it all over the philosophical net last weeks. Right up there with Tom Lehrer. Great stuff. Regards from Jim O'shea. Ken, thanks for directing me towards the works of Cockshott and others. I just downloaded one book in PDF form.
This is the Spufford who wrote that book on the British space programme, right?
Actually, you're right about ideas from workers - companies which have a suggestions scheme tend to do very well - even IBM had that "banana badge" system! The problem with suggestions is that which was encountered by the chief test pilot of Rolls Royce, Bill Beaumont. He asked for a rise, his boss asked why he thought he deserved one, he pointed out that he had thought of the Spey-engined Phantom, and his boss said "That's your job!" Gah...
Someone needs to deal with this whole calculation problem for a centrally-planned socialist economy by finding ways to get around the "centrally-planned" part. Perhaps the sketch provided by D.J.P. O'Kane could be filled in by relying on market mechanisms to distribute the calculations, as it were. We could call it "socialistic marketism."
Thanks for the review and recommendation - it's on the wish list.
Ta for the heads-up. I love Spufford too, from Cultural Babbage onwards. In return I can reveal that an American academic called Eden Medina is working on a history of Stafford Beer's Cybersyn. Chris Williams' reference to Cybersyn intrigued me, since I knew nothing about it but had read one thing by Stafford Beer, an introduction to a book on a biological world-view that many consider to be cranky but I do not. Dr. Beer's introduction seemed pretentious, so I dismissed him for two decades. But Chris's reference led me to look at Wikipedia's entry on Beer. It is fascinating, it changed my opinion of Dr Beer, and it is relevant to this blog topic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Stafford_Beer .
To Ken -- thanks, will read. Funnily enough several important and very useful productions methods/ improvements at the place I used to work came from the shop floor people who had to do the work, rather than anything to do with the management, who at that time were still intelligent enough to take notice. THe newer management however, despite some of them having started low down, didn't keep this openness up.
George - Stafford Beer was an early inspiration for Cockshott, I think. I disagree profoundly with the idea that entrepeneurs are the sole agents of progress. Without defending the Soviet Union or China, the former developed a space programme while the latter was able to raise average life expectancy by thirty years between 1949 and 1975. Cuba's gains in literacy, healthcare etc. are, as far as I'm concerned, examples of progress, though of a social rather than scientific nature. Even then state organisations like the NHS were able to discover basic yet profound facts like the link between health and exercise. Well, comparing a communist state like China or Cuba with a neofascist state like the U.S. doesn't tell us much about what workers and/or entrepreneurs would be able to accomplish in the absence of either communist or neofascist control.
Roderick made the point "They're relevant to the "millions of equations" problem, but that problem assumes that one has the data in usable form and just needs to perform calculations on it, which makes it downstream from the two main problems -- the Hayek problem (namely the impossibility of collecting the date in the first place, since the information exists in largely inarticulate form) and the Mises problem (even if one could collect the relevant data about preferences, the preferences would be ordinal rather than cardinal and so absent prices there'd be no way of combining different individuals' value scales)."
Budapestkick, the Soviet space programme, like the German rocket programme and the American space programme, was the result of mavericks who thought outside the box, and got governments to pay for spaceships - no dosh, no Dan Dare. Today, I believe entrepreneurs are the best route for the world, and especially Britain, to get into space in a big way. Hi, Ken, Thank you for posting this. I used linear programming a lot and my mentor forced me to understand the underlying matrix algebra; so from a non-political, mathematical, and practical user point of view, I want to know about this man.
Something along those lines, known as "Project Cybersyn" , was attempted in Chile between 1970-3, under the direction of Anthony Stafford Beer
Some may be interested to know of this group ecaworkinggroup@yahoogroups.com Thanks Alan. Cockshott et al's scheme does have 'prices' for consumer goods and 'payment' for work, so it's quite a way from the SPGB's conception of socialism. It would be very interesting to see a criticism of the scheme from the SPGB point of view.
I am definitely going to buy this book and read.
|
Hi Ken---Computer assisted socialism was what we discussed when we first met, in Leuven 07. I was very unclear on the topic and still am. Shall order asap. Thanks for the tip.
By George Berger, at Sunday, May 23, 2010 2:50:00 pm